CONSISTENCY

"Yaakov Kirschen in his cartoon ‘Dry Bones’ got it right when he declared that NBC’s TV movie of the Holocaust got a larger reaction than the Third Reich’s original production."

There are holocaust deniers out there, some quite prominent and some just disgruntled cranks mumbling to themselves. They run the gamut of society, and the sad fact is I believe that as time goes on their voice will become stronger. We still have people in our midst who can point to their arm, show the numerical tattoo off and say "I was there you miserable bastard!" Some day those people will die and the denials will just get louder.

One such person is Congressman Tom Lantos (D-CA), and he recently met with Dutch politicians. Lantos is not a friend of Guantanamo Bay, he's rather outspoken against the war on terror and is a strong leftist. Probably the Dutch, led by green party legislator Mariko Peters thought they had a sympathetic audience. These folks want to get Guantanamo Bay shut down, partly due to riots and Islamic pressure in the Netherlands. They didn't hear what they expected.

Peters said: “We have to close Guantanamo because it symbolizes for me everything that is wrong with this war on terror.”

To which Lantos apparently replied: “Europe was not as outraged by Auschwitz as by Guantanamo Bay”

He also said: “You have to help us, because if it was not for us you would now be a province of Nazi Germany.”

The socialists were dismayed, grumbling that this "shut down the debate." Yes, I should rather think so. The problem is, as Don Surber points out, there never really was any debate:

Americans by and large do not care what the Dutch think or the French or the Germans or the Belgians. We’ll listen to them, but if they are going to go tell us we “have to” do this or we “have to” do that, they can put a sock in it.

Let’s talk about NATO, shall we? After liberating half of Europe in World War II, we set up NATO to protect that half from the Soviets. We did so because we did not want to have to climb through a bunch of sand and barbed wire again to take back the European continent from cheap-ass dictators.

About 10 years ago, the rest of NATO decided to bomb Yugoslavia — using our bombs, of course — to prevent the holocaust of some Islamic people. We went in. Slobodan Milosevic was no world threat, but any time we can liberate a people, we should do it.

NATO had our back in Afghanistan. But Iraq? Not so much. And now the Dutch are queasy about Gitmo because their own Islamic youths are not happy campers.

Like the letter-writing effort by the prominent UK Newspaper the Guardian to influence Clark County voters in Iowa, telling Americans what to do generally backfires. That's true about most countries, if the US told the Netherlands what to do I expect most of the Dutch would respond in flinty disregard and contempt. After all, if you're not part of that country, who are you to say? I'd expand on Mr Surber's point and say that there wasn't any debate because there was no interest in hearing anything but the one side: close Guantanmo Bay down, stop antagonizing Muslims because they get mad at us.

Readers at Don Surber's site responded to the news:

Bush said he would close Gitmo as soon as the countries from which the Gitmese came from claim them. To this date, the Euros refuse to claim their own upright citizens incacerated by Bushitler. Go figure.

The Dutch may as well pull out from Afghanistan, they are not fighting anyway. Most NATO members’ troops are there for show. They are in the saftest areas, and refuse to fight. We may have to spend resources to protect them.

The only NATO members who fight are the US, the Brits, and the Canadians. The Germans contribute helicopters to ferry the troops. What do the French and the Dutch do?
-by ic


My Dutch father and grandfather would spin in their graves if they could see how the feckless, craven leftists who now dominate Dutch politics are shaming the Netherlands (see Ayaan Hirsi Ali) while allowing it to be colonized right under their noses by a hostile culture.

The real “problem with the war on terror” is the left’s manufactured outrage over everything and anything that could possibly undercut America’s efforts–and damn the consequences.

So Tom Lantos had an epiphany. Big deal. I’m sure it’s just a momentary lapse on his part and tomorrow he’ll be damning Bush and the U.S. again with the rest of them.
-by Drake

“The only NATO members who fight are the US, the Brits, and the Canadians. The Germans contribute helicopters to ferry the troops.”

You forgot the Australians. Even though they’re not NATO, they’re still there fighting besides us. Interesting how english speaking nations tend to help each other out in times of need.
-by Pantera


1. Ic, I am afraid you are mistaken about the Dutch role in Afghanistan. Unlike the French, Italians and the Germans, the Dutch are fighting with the British, Canadians and Americans in the dangerous southern part of the country. They recently have been taking casulties. The Netherlands has joined Canada in desparately pleading with other NATO allies to share the combat burden.
2. The Dutch did not send the delegation to “bitch about Gitmo”. It was a multiparty fact-finding delegation responding in part to the wish of the Bush administration to transfer Gitmo detainees to other countries, including the Netherlands. They also visited Gitmo itself. While leftwing politicians did indeed say some clueless things. the rightwingers reported that conditions at the prison were admirable.
-by Global2

Don Surber Reply: My lone trip to your nation (and Amsterdam was not on the itinerary) was a joy. The Dutch really appreciated Americans — the 101st returning after 30+ years (I was not a member of the 101st; there to report).


You have to separate the soldiers from the politicians. Sounds familiar? There are several (many?) european countries in Afghanistan. It is my understanding that the soldiers do very well on the ground while trying to avoid the politicians from their home country. Fortunately some governments “get it” - a small danish contingent has lost a number of soldiers, but the prime minister is holding steady. (The amount of fighting is the most significant since the danish-prussian war of 1864).

The morale, soldiers KNOW what is at stake, politicians rarely do. ‘Bully’ for the danish PM. There is hope yet.
-by Hedje


Just to provide some perspective: Van Bommel is from a socialist party about akin to the moveon wing of the DNC. At this point in time the Netherlands have more soldiers per capita fighting the war on terror than any country besides the US, UK and Oz. As this is a bit of a strain for us with just a small military, we are asking other European Nato partners to back us up a bit. There is no intention of quitting. Before you insult an entire country and a good ally because of our left wing fringe, please check out your facts.
-by Wijnand


I find some comments to this thread problematic for three reasons.

Firstly, because they’re based on ignorance. Global2 has already corrected this ignorance in respect of the Dutch contingent - rightly, because they’ve lost 11 men in Afghanistan. But the Germans have lost 22, and the Spanish 24. If this is some bizarre contest to see how many of your compatriots have died across there, the Aussies are losing with their pathetic two deaths.

Secondly, because they hark back to “what my granddad did in WWII”. Great. My Granddad won a military cross and croix de guerre in WWI. However, I am not my Grandfather. I regard him as an example to follow (though with his record he doesn’t make it easy), rather than a licence for me to make empty criticisms of the military performance of other countries.

Thirdly, and most importantly, our objective should be to restate again and again the heroism of what our boys are doing across there, why NATO matters, and why participation in the war on terror is important for all free nations. Bickering and point-scoring by armchair soldiers is useless. Look to the future not the past, and think of persuasion rather than destructive criticism based on national origins.
-by Havved

As Mr Surber says, he'll probably apologize for his comments, that's what politicians do. Sort of. He needn't, and shouldn't.

I do want to point something out, however. While there are some Dutch who are anti-American, and some Dutch politicians who are this sort of MoveOn goofballs, the Netherlands is not like Sweden or France. When the riots happened in their country, the Dutch didn't respond with attempts to cover it up (like France) or capitulate, except for a few exceptions like the ones that visited congressman Lantos.

In the 1980s I remember all this concern in the US over land being purchased by the Japanese, they were going to own more land than Americans! All the while, it was true that by several times over, the nation that owned the most land in the US was... the Netherlands. Of all the continental European nations, at least in the west, The Netherlands are actually the most friendly to the US. Americans are treated with greater respect there than in other nations (such as Germany), according to the reports of travelers.

Let's not get into provincial attacks and insults based on borders, no nation is so homogenous that you can characterize everyone living there with a single position. These politicians are craven and weak, but that doesn't mean the people they represent are. I'd hate to think the US was characterized by Senators Ted Kennedy (D-Mass) or Harry Reid (D-NV). And I'd hate to think the dutch believe Lantos represents my viewpoint of their nation. It was a team effort that beat the Nazis, and while the US carried the heaviest load, everyone worked together.

Dutch, Congressman Lantos, Guantanamo Bay